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The Last Jedi - Spoiler discussion

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  • 70 Comments sorted by Votes Date Added
  • edited December 2017 Posts: 0Vote Up0Vote Down
    First: my apologies for the multiple posts. 

    Here are some articles that, perhaps, might help shed some light into how I feel about the movies than I can right now (I didn't sleep well at all):

    "The Last Jedi Killed My Childhood and that's Exactly why it's Great" https://io9.gizmodo.com/the-last-jedi-killed-my-childhood-and-thats-exactly-wh-1821429836

    "The Last Jedi Does more for Star Wars future than any other movie precisely because it Destroys it's past": http://www.gamesradar.com/the-last-jedi-does-more-for-star-wars-future-than-any-other-movie-precisely-because-it-destroys-its-past/


    Post edited by TheLion at 2017-12-19 22:19:20
  • And....on more post only because I can't seem to edit that last post on my phone...


    I find if fascinating that we all like Star Wars but can have such disparate opinions and feelings about each movie. It's one of the cool things about stuff like this.
  • TheLion said:

    I'm curious about the "Disney-effect" in this example.  Could you explain?

    It's hard to pin down, but the best way I've heard it described is that it's literally everything for everyone. You please all demographics at once, and by doing so you limit yourself in what you can do. It's actually one of the biggest complaints about Phantom Menace (even though it's not Disney), in that they tried to tailor it too much toward kids and casual fans (pod races, Jar Jar Binks, Boss Nass, etc.).

    And I know all the movies have that to a degree, but it just feels more forced in the Disney movies. Especially where the humor is concerned. Like the little island caretakers that get annoyed when Rey blows up walls and houses. It was cute and funny but a little too slapstick.

    You are correct in that as cinema, I like the movies. As a new chapter in a 9-chapter story, I'm not sure it fits with what preceded it. And where that's because of the "Disneyfication" of it or because I'm just not as attached to it as everyone else, I just don't think it's in the same league as the previous movies.

    And even though I can't make anyone feel differently about their opinion and I respect differing ones, I cannot for the life of me fathom how any of the new movies can outrank any movie from the original trilogy. Just now, thinking about A New Hope, it still makes me giddy in a way that these new ones come close to but still fall short. And even the conflicts in RotJ still blow me away far more than even the strongest moments from VII and VIII. But I digress.
  • Lots of stuff to react to, and will have to do so gradually. To go first to your point, Joey, about how you don’t see Kylo as Sith and Rey as Jedi. I too was really hoping they would invent something new, but Luke’s final lines to Kylo specifically state that the Jedi would never die (that Rey is a Jedi). That’s what I mean about going back to status quo - Rather than create something new, they keep going back to what is safe. It’s frustrating to me.

    C
  • edited December 2017 Posts: 0Vote Up0Vote Down
    Sorry Mike, but I gotta disagree with you on the humor thing. I can totally see Disney saying “Put in the milk thing!” Constant humor seems to be currently linked to a well-performing movie. I saw Thor Ragnarok, and while I enjoyed it, the CONSTANT goofiness bothered me. But the movie has made 90 zillion dollars, so it must work for people. Disney wants to use the humor formula in every movie because it tests well. Look at how much flack DC movies have taken due to their darkness. JL had humor-adding reshoots because of this. People want goofiness. I am okay with it in small amounts in a Star Wars film, but i agree that LJ had too much. Boob milk? An Order employee using the term “jonesing” or whatever he said? Put a shirt on? Awkward and stupid.

    C
    Post edited by SuperCDad at 2017-12-20 13:44:31
  • Though, I have to say - I really liked the Porgs. I like how they invaded the Falcon, and were even building nests and having babies lol. Too me, it was the best humor of the movie.

    C
  • Haha, LOTS of catching up to do here!

    First off, let me say that I'm super excited that Matt posted.  As much as I laughed at his "meh" post, I was really disappointed that it didn't look like he was going to post because he is REALLY GOOD at looking at movies objectively and I thought he'd be a good review.  Yay!  Thanks, Matt!

    Since there is so much to digest, I think I'm going to try for short comments rather than anything long and deep.  (phrasing)  For what it's worth, I don't pick up any "Disney Presents:" vibe.  I understand that you do, but this is still a Lucasfilm production and it's very free to do its own thing without any corporate meddling.  Kathleen Kennedy has been involved with Lucasfilm since Raiders of the Lost Ark.  It's worth looking over this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathleen_Kennedy_(producer)#Filmography  She was picked by George for a reason, and she probably has a better feel for the "vision" of Star Wars than anyone else on the planet, regardless of how many times I have seen the movies.  :P

    One of the best rebuttals I have seen in our little corner of the internet is that TLJ completely destroys Luke's "hero's journey."  I can't argue with that.  Please, it would be so so easy to join the rest of the internet and hate this movie.  There is nothing I wanted more to see Luke bust out his green lightsaber and fuck up the First Order.  That he was more or less "lost" on Ach-to, and not willingly.  TLJ completely subverts the hero's journey in a way that completely upended everything I wanted to see and feel about the character.  That was a huge twist to me, invested me in the movie further, and made Luke so much more sympathetic to me.  I love Luke's conflict, and the journey he takes to finding himself in the Force, and the world, again.  He felt purpose, and peace.  And of course, Luke deliberately says, "See you 'round, kiddo." He's not done, yet.

    Given all this, what amazes me is that there was no negative reaction to Han in TFA.  This man had so much growth over the OT, and went from being a smuggler to being a respected and beloved general in the Rebel Alliance.  To the point that Luke, Leia, and Lando risked their lives and, potentially, the fate of the galaxy just to rescue him from Jabba.  He ends RotJ clearly intending to start a family with Leia (royalty, no less), and a hero of the New Republic.  When TFA catches us up, he's a broken shell of a man.  He's left his wife, he's lost his son, he fucking LOST the Millennium Falcon--why didn't people lose their shit over this!?  He isn't even smuggling, per se.  It's clear he's trying--but he's selling the same product to at least two, maybe three gangs--having accepted money from all of them.  He's not a "scoundrel" any more, he's just a shitty thief, doing a shitty job.  His arc in the ST is the absolute worst, and yet no one has said anything about this.  Luke is conflicted, but goes out as a Jedi.  Han is an old and broken man, and his partial redemptive arc gets him murdered by his son.  He falls into a pit, and is left behind to explode--Luke has a vision of Tattooine and becomes one with the Force.  

    I'm not trying to straw-man here, I'm just saying--if the purpose of the movie is to continue to carry the hero's journey arc for the characters, or at least Luke...then I concede the point.  It abjectly fails on that part.  But if it completely shocks me by taking Luke apart, and then putting him back together again in tale of redemption and purpose--I didn't ask for that, but goddamn do I love it.  (And it's so much better than Han got.)  Mike, those articles you linked are great.  I hated every part of this movie tearing apart the OT.  But it pulls some phoenix shit coming out the other side, shiny, new, bigger--in a way that excites me.  I knew what I wanted to see going in to this movie.  I knew what I expected to see.  And I didn't get that...but somehow, I got something better.

    Corey, I get the feeling that you and I are going to disagree on the Jedi/Sith thing maybe forever, or at least until the next ST movie.  :D  The whole point of Yoda burning down the Jedi temple is to spur change.  I never would've expected that when Luke means that the Jedi have to end...that they WOULD, and that I would ROOT FOR IT, and that YODA WOULD HELP.  It is purposeful and deliberate that Rey now carries forward for the light side.  Not necessarily the Jedi, but the light.  And maybe we'll call everyone Jedi just because of marketing, or theme, or whatever--but they won't be like the Jedi we've seen before.  And while the movies seem to go out of their way to stress that Kylo is dark side, and not Sith--he's doubled-down on the dark side.  It's a new battle of the dark, vs. the light, in a way that is more self-aware than has ever happened in the franchise.  And that, I think, is why I'm a bit worried about JJ Abrams.  I don't know how much of TFA was him, and how much was Lucasfilm...but I want to see more Rian Johnson Star Wars.  I look forward to Ron Howard's joint next Christmas.

    Peaaaaaaace
  • MattyDoo said:

    I cannot for the life of me fathom how any of the new movies can outrank any movie from the original trilogy. Just now, thinking about A New Hope, it still makes me giddy in a way that these new ones come close to but still fall short.

    I guess I will go back to my previous post and just say it depends on your ranking criteria. For me, I rank ANH lower than a couple of the new ones because honestly it just doesn’t hold up as well as the other two originals and isn’t as enjoyable to watch these days (and yes I have watched it multiple times in the past few years). So if f my list was based on something else, like how I felt the first time I watched it or it’s impact on society of course it would be higher. However if you were to ask me if I would rather watch ANH or RO tonight, I would likely choose RO. And note it isn’t just the fact that it is older as I still rank ROJ and ESB as 1 and 2.
  • I also want to comment on the Han vs. Luke stories as I have thought about that a bit too. For me it just comes down to one (Han) being totally in character and the other just being such a departure. Han was always a conflicted character who made a series of poor choices but always came around in the end. So the fact that he ran away from the Kylo problem totally fits with my understanding of the character. Then his eventually coming around and trying to fix it was again right on character.

    The fact that Luke, who never ran away from a problem ends up as a grumpy old man hiding from the same problem just doesn’t sit right with me knowing what I know about him. That being said, I will reiterate that I like how he almost killed Kylo and how much he story ended, I just don’t like how they set that part up.
  • airdog said:

    I also want to comment on the Han vs. Luke stories as I have thought about that a bit too. For me it just comes down to one (Han) being totally in character and the other just being such a departure. Han was always a conflicted character who made a series of poor choices but always came around in the end. So the fact that he ran away from the Kylo problem totally fits with my understanding of the character. Then his eventually coming around and trying to fix it was again right on character.

    The fact that Luke, who never ran away from a problem ends up as a grumpy old man hiding from the same problem just doesn’t sit right with me knowing what I know about him. That being said, I will reiterate that I like how he almost killed Kylo (at his academy) and I loved how his story ended, I just don’t like how they set that part up.

  • Every time I read a positive review, the responses are invariably "stop trying to make this shitty film good" or "how much did Disney pay you to write this?"  I get that not everyone feels the same, but wow--the internet sucks.
  • dumps said:

    Every time I read a positive review, the responses are invariably "stop trying to make this shitty film good" or "how much did Disney pay you to write this?"  I get that not everyone feels the same, but wow--the internet sucks.

    Quick point on that: I agree, the internet sucks. At least in this regard. Because even if I don't agree with you, I *get* why you feel that way and I respect it. And if I don't "get it," I ask so I can learn.

  • I don't know if anyone mentioned this yet or not, but I thought it was a fun little easter egg that "I have a bad feeling about this" was, as is tradition, in the film - but in this case you wouldn't not it since it was BB-8 that said it.
  • I was thinking about the issue with Luke, and how he always showed great resolve and courage, and I think the difference here is that HE was the one who caused the problem. Unless I am forgetting something major, I’m pretty sure it was always “I’m Luke and I have to stop the bad guy!” This time, Luke was the bad guy.

    He still could have had a bigger pair, but this is one way to look at it to somewhat justify his withdrawal.

    C
  • My ranking (from favorite to least favorite):

    1. Return of the Jedi
    2. Empire Strikes Back
    3. Rogue One
    4. A New Hope
    5. Phantom Menace
    6. Last Jedi
    7. Revenge of the Sith
    8. The Force Awakens
    9. Attack of the Clones

    I full admit that ESB is a better movie, but I still have a soft spot in my heart for RotJ

    C
  • SuperCDad said:

    My ranking (from favorite to least favorite):

    1. Return of the Jedi
    2. Empire Strikes Back
    3. Rogue One
    4. A New Hope
    5. Phantom Menace
    6. Last Jedi
    7. Revenge of the Sith
    8. The Force Awakens
    9. Attack of the Clones

    I full admit that ESB is a better movie, but I still have a soft spot in my heart for RotJ

    C

    There a sizable contingent of people our age who appreciate RotJ more because that was the first one they saw in theaters and because (arguably) it was the most accessible.

    Phantom Menace over TLJ is gutsy, but I respect it. I know they're universally pooh-poohed but I didn't hate the prequels. I still love Sith.
  • I really like the plot of Phantom Menace. It was really cool how Palpatine set everything up to gain total control of the Senate. Jar Jar and the horrible acting of Anakin make it tough to watch at times, but overall I like it a lot. And I’ve always like Qui Gon Jin a lot.

    C
  • Matt, as far as I'm concerned, you guys are the only people whose opinion matters. That's why I'm so interested in what you have to say. Except about Night at the Roxbury. What movie did we see where I recanted everything bad I'd ever said about Roxbury? That said, Certified Fresh vs. audience score is an amazing juxtaposition.

    Mike, I did catch that and loved it.

    Corey, Luke has always been impulsive and doesn't have the best track record for getting himself in too deep. (phrasing) The poster child for this is ESB where he fails repeatedly through the whole thing. Yoda calls him on it several times. I don't have the same perspective on the character. Very interesting.
  • It was Transformers the Last Knight, I think.
  • This hits it pretty well on the head, the "I loved it even though I didn't love it" review:

    https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2017/12/four-things-i-love-and-four-things-i-hate-about-st.html
  • Key points from the review I posted above:

    "As Kylo Ren, Adam Driver is the reason to see the film, filled with intensity and confusion, but also resolve and determination."

    I love Rey, and she was my favorite coming out of TFA. My favorite now, by far, is Kylo Ren. I hated how emo he was in TFA, but they've totally redeemed the character AND made him compelling as a Supreme Leader. Adam Driver deserves kudos.

    "More importantly, the death of Snoke beautifully serves the character of Kylo Ren, freeing him from the bondage of being a student and thrusting him into the unexpected position of the series’ true, ultimate antagonist—not because he was seduced by a pure evil (and, thus, one-dimensional) mastermind, but because he chose this path after considering the options before him. Kylo Ren’s logical philosophy make him by far the most fascinating character in this trilogy, and he’s shown to possess enough cunning to overcome obstacles that we would have thought narratively impossible in The Force Awakens."

    Yes.

    "(Regarding the post-Snoke-death fight) In a word, this entire action sequence was gorgeous, Rian Johnson’s greatest moment as a Star Wars director, no doubt. A hard, gritty fight that is beautifully lit with carnal splashes of crimson, it feels appropriately impactful. Johnson doesn’t shy away from the realities of hand-to-hand combat with weapons that can sever limbs and punch holes straight through people, making the sequence considerably more dire and overtly violent than almost any other Star Wars confrontation."

    Recency bias noted, but this sequence was the best hand-to-hand, close-quarter combat sequence in the movie series. It's the Season 1 Daredevil single-take hallway scene of the franchise.

    "(The Finn Subplot) They’re supposed to be in a desperate race against time to save their friends in the Resistance, but it they act as if they’re on some sort of holiday vacation. Things only get worse during the loathsome, CGI-driven chase sequence on the backs of the space horses known as fathiers, a silly set-piece that wouldn’t have seemed out of place in The Phantom Menace or Attack of the Clones—and I mean that to be exactly as disparaging as it sounds.

    Meh.

    "(After trashing purple-haired Laura Dern) With all that said, the lightspeed ramming sequence is truly awesome. That should go without saying.

    Truth. That sequence gave me literal chills.

    Why does Luke physically die after the confrontation with Kylo Ren? It seems like it should be an easy, obvious question to answer, but it’s not. In fact, every person I speak with about this issue seems to have independently come up with their own answer to the question.

    The fourth possibility they don't mention in the review is plot convenience, but I wasn't as jaded by his random unexplainable death as the reviewer was.

    As is, porgs functionally exist to slap on every conceivable toy or piece of apparel that Disney could sell to completionist Star Wars fans. When I look at them, it’s impossible to not be reminded that this series exists first and foremost to put money in the coffers of the Disney oligarchy. And it’s safe to say that’s the last thing I want to be thinking about while watching Star Wars.

    Disneyfication. No better or worse than pod races, but it speaks to that Disney feeling I got that permeated the whole movie.
  • edited December 2017 Posts: 0Vote Up0Vote Down
    We interrupt this thread for some important news:

    I know Matt listens to the "Shat the Movies" podcast (since he introduced me to it), but for the rest of you I encourage you to listen to the most recent episode on "The Empire Strikes Back."  It's pretty fair, but what's funny happens during the last 5 minutes.  So, if you don't have any time to the whole episode, just fast forward to the end.  You'll know why when you get there. :)

    Edit: Here's a link - http://shatthemovies.com/

    Post edited by TheLion at 2017-12-21 03:42:16
  • TheLion said:

    We interrupt this thread for some important news:


    I know Matt listens to the "Shat the Movies" podcast (since he introduced me to it), but for the rest of you I encourage you to listen to the most recent episode on "The Empire Strikes Back."  It's pretty fair, but what's funny happens during the last 5 minutes.  So, if you don't have any time to the whole episode, just fast forward to the end.  You'll know why when you get there. :)

    Edit: Here's a link - http://shatthemovies.com/

    I'm listening on my commute tomorrow morning!!
    :D :D :D :D
  • TheLion said:

    We interrupt this thread for some important news:


    I know Matt listens to the "Shat the Movies" podcast (since he introduced me to it), but for the rest of you I encourage you to listen to the most recent episode on "The Empire Strikes Back."  It's pretty fair, but what's funny happens during the last 5 minutes.  So, if you don't have any time to the whole episode, just fast forward to the end.  You'll know why when you get there. :)

    Edit: Here's a link - http://shatthemovies.com/

    OMG. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Yes!

  • TheLion said:

    I don't know if anyone mentioned this yet or not, but I thought it was a fun little easter egg that "I have a bad feeling about this" was, as is tradition, in the film - but in this case you wouldn't not it since it was BB-8 that said it.




    That’s kind of neat. Was the scream (can’t remember its name right now) in it? I didn’t notice it either time I saw the film.

    C
  • Listened to the podcast (liked it overall!) - very cool but of course I don’t get the copper part being I didn’t live in Erie then. :)
  • airdog said:

    Listened to the podcast (liked it overall!) - very cool but of course I don’t get the copper part being I didn’t live in Erie then. :)

    In order to be in the space program with a big hoss, you need special copper tubing for your hoss to tuck it into the space suit appropriately. It's science. :D
  • It seems so obvious now that you explain it....
  • Timestamp 1:02:07.  I was expecting something about Star Wars...I'm so foolish.
  • To get back on topic lol, I don’t get all the hate for Rose. I thought she was a pretty cool character. What did you guys think of her?

    C
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